The Customer Success Playbook

Customer Success Playbook Podcast S3 E62 - John Huber - Who Should Really Own Upsells and Cross-sells?

• Kevin Metzger • Season 3 • Episode 62

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Wednesday brings the burning question that divides CS and sales teams everywhere: who should own expansion revenue? John Huber tackles this contentious topic with nuanced insights drawn from his experience managing both dedicated CS-led expansion models and hybrid partnership approaches. Rather than offering a one-size-fits-all answer, John presents a thoughtful framework for determining the optimal structure based on deal complexity, sales cycle length, and organizational maturity. He shares specific examples of successful implementations, including a sophisticated model where CSMs handled straightforward upsells and renewals while account executives managed complex expansion opportunities. The discussion dives deep into compensation structures, forecasting methodologies, and the critical importance of clearly defining roles to avoid territorial conflicts. This customer success playbook episode provides practical guidance for leaders struggling to optimize their expansion strategy without sacrificing customer relationships.


Detailed Analysis

This episode addresses one of the most politically charged topics in revenue operations: expansion ownership. John's approach demonstrates sophisticated thinking about organizational design, moving beyond simple "CS versus Sales" debates to examine the underlying factors that should drive structural decisions.

The hybrid model John describes represents an evolution in CS thinking, recognizing that different types of expansion opportunities require different skill sets and engagement approaches. His 70/30 compensation structure (70% quota-oriented, 30% experience-focused) within the variable component offers a practical framework for balancing commercial accountability with customer-centric behaviors.

Particularly valuable is John's emphasis on forecasting churn and renewal business with the same rigor as new logo acquisition. His practice of conducting detailed risk assessments 4-5 months before fiscal year start demonstrates the proactive mindset required for successful renewal management. The recommendation to begin renewal conversations 12 months in advance challenges the reactive approach many organizations take to customer retention.

The discussion also highlights the importance of cross-functional partnerships, especially between CS and finance teams, in developing accurate forecasting models. John's collaborative approach with his CFO shows how CS leaders can elevate their strategic influence by speaking the language of business operations.

For revenue leaders, this episode provides a decision-making framework for expansion ownership that considers deal complexity, resource allocation, and organizational capabilities rather than defaulting to territorial thinking.

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Kevin Metzger:

Welcome back to the Customer Success Playbook podcast. I'm Kevin Medsker Roman, unfortunately is unable to join us this week, but we are here again with John Huber. It's Wednesday, which means it's time for one big question, but before we get into it, we're gonna. Loosen up with a few icebreakers. John, what's one song that always kind of fires you up before, like a big presentation or, you know, going into, to really close on something?

John Huber:

It's a great question. I'm a big music fan. I say my go-to is a song called Disco by Widespread Panic, which is, uh, it's an instrumental song, just puts a smile on my face, very upbeat, uh, and kind of gets you in that right mindset. Widespread panic. They're, uh, yeah, you're an Atlanta guy. That, uh, what's that? I said, you're an Atlanta guy. They're from, uh, from your area.

Kevin Metzger:

That's what I was gonna say. They're, they're big down here. If you weren't in customer success, what career would you pursue for fun? I. It's a great question. Fun

John Huber:

being the optic, uh, optimal word. Uh, would love to be a professional golfer. My golf game is nowhere near, uh, suited to be a professional golfer, but man, I think it would be a ton of fun, uh, you know, to have that, uh, that time and uh, that passion. So,

Kevin Metzger:

I don't know, I get so frustrated every time I get out on the course, I don't. It does seem like quite the life. What's your favorite thing to either cook or eat and, and, and Are you a cook or,

John Huber:

I do. I do love to grill. You know, I think my wife and I both cook. Uh, I've got three girls at home. I did get a new grill last summer and it came with a flat top insert. I found myself just loving to cook on the flat top fajitas. Right. You know, chicken, veggies, smash burgers, um, you know, I didn't think I would use it at all. And I, I mean, we use it probably three or four nights a week. I absolutely love it.

Kevin Metzger:

I got my Blackstone. Back before right around COVID. I I don't know if it was 2020 or whether it was 2019 that I got it. I know I was using it a ton during COVID, but, uh, I still still use it a ton to this day. I actually, I probably need to replace it at this point, but, uh, it's fantastic. Can do just about anything. You can,

John Huber:

I haven't done breakfast yet, but I see a lot of people doing breakfast, so that's, that's my next, uh, my next challenge.

Kevin Metzger:

Yeah, breakfast is good. I guess we should get into it. It's one Wednesday is one big question. Who should own expansion and upsell? Should it be in CS or should it be in sales Hybrid? What's your thought?

John Huber:

Yeah, that's a great debate. And I, I would tell you it depends. Um, and I'll share a couple of examples because I've lived in both worlds. I've worked at a couple of companies where 12 months after the original deal was signed, the CSM would own, you know, the expansion, the upsell opportunities, the renewal opportunities. Like my most recent company as an example, we made a, a pretty important decision early on as we were building out the teams. To have an account executive partner with A CSM and both sell back to the customer. And, and the reason we did that was, you know, we were selling highly complex, typically very long enterprise type sales motions. And so I. When we're selling a new division to a large pharmaceutical company in Europe, oftentimes that takes on a life of itself, and you still wanna have the CSM dedicated towards all of the things that they do. So, you know, we would align the account executive to handle kind of the larger, complex selling motions. The CSM would still manage, you know, the, I would say more straightforward, upsell, cross-sell opportunities, but then also manage a renewal. And it created a really tight partnership between the two. Where we are, we're able to really grow with our customers. So. I think it really depends on what's, what's needed at that point in time for the company.

Kevin Metzger:

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and I, I've seen, I've seen a lot of similar, um, designs, like where a lot of the renewals, it does make sense to, in my opinion, to run through the CSM because they're the one engaged on the day-to-day, but definitely for expansion, depending on where the expansions. Occurring. That's a partnership. You want to be able to have, uh, the sales guy in working, especially if it's somewhere outside of the initial environment. But looking for the opportunity is such a, having the CSM help look for the opportunity because a lot of time, that's where, that's where it does come from. If you do have. That structure right? Where the CSMs helping with the renewal, but expansions coming from the ae. What do you see? Do you look, what kind of compensation structure do you like to see in that scenario?

John Huber:

Yeah, it, it, it's a great, so I'll kind of. Share a, a couple of examples. So I think first it starts with clearly defining who owns what right across those two roles. And, um, you know, we created a, an internal document to align our team so they knew which selling motion, you know, they were responsible for, but we also incented them to support each other. And so, you know, when you add that element of you may get partial credit for a large expansion opportunities to CSM. You know, that also, um, helps kind of forge a, a pretty strong BO bond and partnership there. But when I look at a CSM comp plan, you know, things that I look for is balancing some of the commercial responsibilities such as that, you know, those quota bearing elements, cross-sell, upsell, but then also the renewal motion and balancing that with the non-commercial aspects such as. You know, driving, you know, a positive customer experience, high net promoters, things of that nature, and aligning the elements within the comp plan to incentivize the right behaviors. You don't wanna over rotate too much on the sales component, but you also don't want to, you know, over rotate on the, uh, on the non-commercial aspects as well. So I've often found kind of a 70 30 split has seemed to work really well. 70% being the commercial. Quota related items, and then 30% being,

Kevin Metzger:

you know, the

John Huber:

non-commercial items.

Kevin Metzger:

In that scenario, you're going with a 30% base and 70% based off of sales. Just making sure I understood it the way you meant it.

John Huber:

Yeah. I'm sorry. So within the variable component itself? Within the variable

Kevin Metzger:

component, yeah.

John Huber:

Within the variable, it's typically 70, 30, 70% being kind of quota oriented. 30% being, uh, non quota oriented. And how do you like to structure it from a total comp? Yeah, total comp two is usually 60, 40, 60% base, 40% variable up to, you know, 70

Kevin Metzger:

30. You're definitely concerned when you've got churn. How are you kind of monitoring for, hey, these are churn risks versus, Hey, I'm, I'm expecting renewals to come this and this is, what are the key indicators? You're, you're

John Huber:

a great question. I'm a firm believer in forecasting your. Your churn business and your renewal business just as sales forecast their new logo business. You know, I, I, I got into a, a motion with my last CFO where we would sit down about four or five months before the start of the new fiscal year, and we would plan out what. Anybody that we thought was at risk as a possible revenue churn or customer churn, and we would manage to that with the goal of beating our churn plan coming in under the dollar amount that we set forth, and we'd manage it all in Salesforce and then. We manage all the oppor, all of that data would be captured in the renewal opportunity. So as you're having a renewal discussions, you're also aware of what's at risk, why are they at risk, and then how do we mitigate that risk, um, in order to prevent as much churn as we can

Kevin Metzger:

really from an engagement standpoint. Try, I, I'm guessing that try that tends to drive engagement for the renewal discussion. Much earlier.

John Huber:

I used to, uh, tell my team, we've gotta start about a year in advance. And that doesn't mean you've gotta put a proposal in front of your customer 12 months in advance, but you've gotta start to have those conversations and you never have as much time as you'd like. And, and so it's, it's giving yourself more time. And if you can renew it early, that's, that's a good thing

Kevin Metzger:

too. Awesome. Well, we appreciate those insights, John. On Friday we'll wrap up by exploring how AI can help you scale CS A CS team without losing the human touch. Don't miss it, like, subscribe, comment, and until then, keep on playing.

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Kevin Metzger

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Roman Trebon

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John Huber

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