Customer Success Playbook S3 E34 - Ken Sandy - Persuasive NOT Positional Power

In this episode of the Customer Success Playbook, hosts Roman Trebon and Kevin Metzger sit down with Ken Sandy, author of The Influential Product Manager, to uncover the secret sauce behind leadership without formal authority. Ken draws on 25 years of product leadership to explain why "leading through influence" isn't just a survival skill—it's a superpower. From understanding organizational objectives to aligning cross-functional teams around shared goals, Ken emphasizes that effective leadership is rooted in context, not control.

Detailed Description: Product managers often find themselves in high-stakes roles without the luxury of direct authority. So how do they drive outcomes, rally teams, and deliver for customers? According to Ken Sandy, the answer lies in mastering the art of influence. In this episode, Ken challenges the common misconception that authority is essential for leadership and argues that real power comes from shared purpose and contextual clarity.

Ken's number one tip? "Context is king." He explains how product managers (and frankly, anyone in a leadership role) can boost their influence by investing deeply in the "why" behind a project—not just the "what" or "how." When teams understand the problem space, customer needs, and desired outcomes, they become partners in problem-solving rather than passive executors of a plan.

This conversation isn't just for PMs. Project managers, customer success professionals, and cross-functional leaders of all stripes will find actionable wisdom here. Ken also underscores that influence isn't a nice-to-have skill—it's a must-have capability for anyone navigating complex organizations. And spoiler alert: influence actually makes you more objective, more collaborative, and ultimately more effective.

Packed with humor, insight, and practical guidance, this episode delivers a fresh perspective on leadership that breaks the mold. If you're ready to up-level your impact without needing a bigger title, this one's for you.

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Transcript

Kevin Metzger: 0:05

Customer success.

Roman Trebon: 0:10

Hi everyone, and welcome to the Customer Success Playbook podcast, where we bring you actionable insights and fresh strategies for driving customer success. I'm your host, Roman Reon. Joined with me as always is my co-host Kevin Metzger. Kevin, happy Monday. How you doing?

Kevin Metzger: 0:27

Glad to be here, man. Excited about to, uh, today's podcast I'm as well. We've got Ken Sandy on the show today. Ken's the author of the influential product manager and a seasoned product leader. He'll be sharing his insights on how product managers can build credibility and authority within their organizations, ultimately driving better outcomes for customers. Ken, welcome to the show. Nice to meet you. Thank

Ken Sandy: 0:53

you for having me. Super excited to be here today. Yeah,

Roman Trebon: 0:56

Ken, I really appreciate it. And, uh, I think your book just hit a, a key anniversary

Ken Sandy: 1:00

date here, so congratulations on that. That's what, five years would you believe it since the influential product manager came out? Uh, of course, my timing for publishing it right at the beginning of Covid couldn't have be, couldn't have been worse. But, uh, it's actually done, uh, really well, and I actually frequently use it with my clients and I get lots of feedback from folks that it's as relevant as ever. So I'm really, really happy with, uh, with how it's been. That's awesome.

Roman Trebon: 1:29

Well, if you're gonna publish a new book, Ken, let us know though, if, if, if your new book comes out with a, a pandemic, let us know. So I have a heads up on that, so

Ken Sandy: 1:36

whatever. That's right. The kiss of death, is it?

Roman Trebon: 1:40

Exactly. Alright, well let's get in here. Uh, today's segment is our, our number one tip. So Ken, what is your number one tip for product managers who wanna gain an influence and I'm sure they're delivering real value to their customers.

Ken Sandy: 1:54

Thanks for asking that que question. Well, a lot of, uh, a lot of my history, 25 years in product management has been really trying to figure out how to be more a more effective leader within an organization. And I, I think it's fair to say that leading through influence, and I make sure I use the words leading through influence, it's often called managing through influence. But I like that'cause you're not actually managing those, you influence. Uh, in fact, you're often influencing people a lot more senior than you. Uh, is the, is the technique, uh, that will make a difference between a good PM and, and a great pm. Uh, PMs have a unique challenge in that they do not have direct authority. So even if they do try to use that or overly rely on authority to get things done, uh, it's actually toxic because, uh, they will not be as successful as they can if they were to use influence instead. So we're only successful by leveraging the talents of cross of cross-functional group of people. Each of them have their own personal, professional, and business, um, objectives to consider. And it's, uh, it's, it's really about a lot of different stakeholders, a lot of different, uh, challenges. Uh, and none of them report to you. So you've gotta actually figure out how to get everyone moving in more or less the same direction. And at this point, I usually say. Consensus is not what you're trying to achieve. Uh, alignment is better. Consensus is next to impossible. But if you get the votes in your column, so to speak, you can get the majority of folks heading in more or less the right direction, better still if they're owning that and, uh, bringing their own talents to bear on the solution. So you really have to rely on persuasive power, not positional power to be successful. And my thesis is that this actually increases, not decreases the chance that a PM is gonna be successful. The reason why is that they're gonna need to understand and embrace their organizational's goals as their own. So they have to be super aligned with the, with the company's objectives and strategy. And if they are not clear, take an ownership role in making them clear. Uh, be by being in more of an influence rather than an authority role, you are more likely to be seen as objective and impartial, and therefore you can, uh, have conversations, uh, with people within an organization that would, you probably be, probably would not be able to, or there may be some. Questions about your objectivity or self-interest, if not, uh, and finally, rather than relying on being able to instruct and direct your team, you really have to rely on what does the data say? I. Being objective, uh, driving cross-functional decision making and looking for compromises that will deliver the same outcomes. Uh, and ultimately it's the needs of the customer and the business that are gonna guide your priorities, not not your own. So influence turns out to be actually a really great thing for product managers. The fact that we don't necessarily have authority, so. What's my number one tip? Many PMs them focus purely on solutions. I find, uh, many particularly junior PMs think the job is writing requirements documents, running a project plan, directing their team through execution, and often think that, Hey, the product's been launched, we're done. And all of that's really just the, just part of the execution. My number one tip is to, to increase your influence. Is, is to remember that context is king. The why is so much more important and powerful in rallying a team, aligning your stakeholders and exciting your customers. Then the win, the what and how are, how are your team and you're gonna actually get to a solution. So. Coming back to the why and making sure everyone has that shared context, the same data that you have, the same rational arguments, the same vision, uh, and, and doing so much more work. Really making sure that the problem is well understood or the needs of the customer are well understood is so much more powerful than jumping straight into solution space and trying to execute. So much of what we do is position. Uh, so much of what we're asked to do is position the solution. So this can be as simply simple as. Just stopping taking a step back and, and taking some time to more deeply understand the underlying need or problem that we're being asked to address, uh, and the desired outcomes, rather than going straight into that kind of solution space.

Kevin Metzger: 7:53

That's great. And I, it's funny, I keep hearing you use. You know, PM meaning for product management, but it's true for project management too, for project managers and, um, and really as I think about it, it's so, it's so true for, for customer success too. It's influence is. I don't, maybe it's a broader term, right? Success in business is, it's, it's not about telling people what to do, it's about trying to find how to accomplish, um, accomplish common goals, right? I think that's really, if you're summing up what you're, how, how to drive influence. Maybe it's about coming up with common goals to try and accomplish together, right?

Ken Sandy: 8:35

Yeah, I, uh, so respond to that, uh, quickly. On one point in that, uh, influences a tech is a skill that every leader and really every professional needs to, to develop, in my opinion. I think it's so powerful. I. It so happens if a product managers day one, you are in that position where that's really the most effective and really the only option you have. So I do find that whatever influences needed in terms of skills for leaders everywhere from day one with product managers, no matter how junior you are, you have to be starting to to, to develop a skill. And generally it's underestimated just how, like if, if every professional's at a level of six. At a 10, but everything we learn here is, is absolutely, if you want to be, uh, successful in getting a group of cross-functional people that you don't directly control, or if you do like getting to that, that. What is the common goal? The shared purpose, the desired outcomes, and then unleashing the team's creativity to the solution and caring less about the solution and more about really understanding the, the context of problem will, will lead you to greater professional success. I'm pretty, pretty, uh, convinced of that.

Roman Trebon: 9:54

This is Ken. Ken, this is fantastic stuff. I am excited to dive into this all week. I already got a bunch of other questions and, and, and ideas as we, as we progress. So, uh, number one tip context is king, right? I love that you already gave us a bunch of nuggets and even summarized it, right? You're a crafty veteran on the show already. Uh, you're coming back on Wednesday. Wednesday's our one big question. You we're gonna look at how product leaders can balance immediate results with long-term vision. Uh, so. For our audience, make sure you subscribe so you, when you know when our next episode is released, like us, um, you'll get a notification. Leave us a comment. Uh, as always, Kevin, keep on playing.