Customer Success Playbook Season 2 Episode 50 - Kevin McCahill - EQ In CS

In this illuminating episode of the Customer Success Playbook Podcast, Kevin McCahill, founder of MasteryCX, joins hosts Roman Trebon and Kevin Metzger to explore the fundamental role of emotional intelligence (EQ) in customer success. With over 20 years of experience in customer success and leadership, McCahill shares deep insights into how EQ shapes customer relationships, drives business outcomes, and becomes increasingly valuable in an AI-driven future.

Key Insights and Analysis

The Foundation of Emotional Intelligence in CS

McCahill defines emotional intelligence as understanding and managing both your own emotions and those of others, emphasizing its critical role in customer interactions. He explains that while often labeled as a "soft skill," EQ is one of the most impactful competencies in customer success, directly influencing customer retention, satisfaction, and business outcomes.

Measuring EQ Impact

The discussion reveals concrete ways to measure EQ's business impact through:

• Customer retention rates
• NPS scores
• Time to Value (TTV)
• Team performance metrics
• Cross-functional collaboration effectiveness

McCahill shares a compelling case study where implementing EQ-focused strategies transformed negative NPS scores to an average of 40, demonstrating the quantifiable impact of emotional intelligence initiatives.

Implementation Strategies

The podcast outlines practical approaches for developing EQ within teams:

• Regular training sessions incorporating role-playing exercises
• Creating safe environments for sharing experiences and learnings
• Leading by example across all organizational levels
• Integrating EQ principles into cross-functional communications
• Building self-awareness through structured feedback

The AI Evolution

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on EQ's evolving role alongside AI advancement. McCahill argues that human emotional intelligence becomes more valuable as automation increases, suggesting that:

• EQ will be a key differentiator for career advancement
• Human-AI collaboration will require enhanced emotional intelligence
• Personalization will blend AI capabilities with human empathy
• Companies must balance automation with authentic human connection

Business Implications

The episode underscores that organizations investing in EQ development can expect:

• Improved customer retention and satisfaction
• Enhanced team performance and collaboration
• Better cross-functional relationships
• Increased competitive advantage in an AI-driven landscape
• Higher employee career progression and satisfaction

Please Like, Comment, Share and Subscribe.

You can also find the CS Playbook Podcast:
YouTube - @CustomerSuccessPlaybookPodcast
Twitter - @CS_Playbook

You can find Kevin at:
Metzgerbusiness.com - Kevin's person web site
Kevin Metzger on Linked In.

You can find Roman at:
Roman Trebon on Linked In.

Transcript

Roman Trebon: 0:25

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Customer Success Playbook Podcast. I'm your host, Roman Trebon, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, The one and only Kevin Metzger. Before we dive in, a quick reminder to rate, subscribe, and share the show if you enjoy what you hear. It really helps us reach more listeners which we really appreciate. Kevin, emotional intelligence is the topic today, right? We haven't touched on this, I think, on the show yet. We've had a lot of episodes on a lot of different topics. I don't think we've touched on emotional intelligence. Kev, for you, let me open up, let me start with you. Why do you think this is such a critical skill in customer success? Thank you

Kevin Metzger: 1:03

Yeah, thanks, Roman. I appreciate the question. I think emotional intelligence is one of those skills. We call it a soft skill, but it's one of the most impactful skills we have, especially in customer success, We're always in front of customers. having conversations dealing with difficult situations. A lot of the time. Sometimes we're dealing with negotiations. You know, there's legal questions that come up and all of these require a high level of Emotional intelligence to deal with properly you can really run something off the rails pretty quickly. If you're not spending time, understanding, listening with empathy and learning, knowing the skills of emotional intelligence for how to handle and respond to a situation and recognizing when somebody is getting frustrated. Those are all skills that are really critical to maintaining relationships.

Roman Trebon: 1:55

Essential, right? you hear IQ a lot. I don't hear EQ nearly as often, And it's super important. so Kev, we're excited to have another Kevin on the show, Kevin McCahill with us today. Kevin is the founder of MasteryCX, and he's a seasoned customer success professional with a track record of leading global teams and driving transformation across the organization. Kevin has over 20 years of experience in customer success and leadership. He's passionate about the role of emotional intelligence in creating exceptional customer experiences and outcomes. He's helped organizations align team dynamics with customer needs. fostering stronger relationships, which you touched on in higher satisfaction rates. So today he's going to join the show share his insights on how emotional intelligence can shape customer success, we'll discuss why understanding and managing emotions both your own and others is a key driver for exceptional customer outcomes And how organizations can harness emotional intelligence to foster stronger client relationships. He'll also touch on practical strategies for building emotionally intelligent teams, right? How to do that within your own team and organization, the challenges leaders face in implementing these approaches and, and how do you measure all of this, right? Kev, I know you and I talk about measuring stuff all the time. So first off, Kevin, welcome to the show.

Kevin McCahill: 3:17

Roman fellow, Kevin. Thank you very much for having me.

Roman Trebon: 3:20

Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, great to have you here. Let's start emotional intelligence as, as, as Kevin M while you're Kevin Metzger said gets talked about as a soft skill, right? But maybe, maybe to start and for our audience, you know can you define emotional intelligence kind of what it is? And then we'll kind of go from there.

Kevin McCahill: 3:43

emotional intelligence is essentially understanding your emotions, understanding the emotions of others, and then how to respond and interact from that we are all affected by the things that are happening around us interactions with our customers. And so we have an emotional response. They do too. So how are we adjusting to that and generally trying to be affected in the positive.

Roman Trebon: 4:08

makes complete sense. let's start here. I appreciate the background, the definition. why is this so important in driving success for customers?

Kevin McCahill: 4:16

naturally as customer success, we are focused on clients and customers. We spend a lot of time with them So how important it is to? And so, so much of what we do, we recognize a CSMs or from wherever we are in the customer success team, we're being driven by a lot of different motivators. Maybe it's a revenue focus. Maybe it's a need for retention, for us, we're on the front line of that relationship. it's really important to understand the needs of those customers, what they're feeling, so we can respond in a positive way. so much of that, especially with larger companies. It's very easy for a customer to feel like they are just on a conveyor belt. They're just a number being passed down the line. So this is an opportunity sort of. Humanize that process to make that customer feel like, yeah, I get you. I hear what you're saying. And so emotional intelligence is things like active listening, things like empathetic listening so that the customer feels heard, feels understood that we get their emotions. We know what they're going through. we want to help. Now you're building rapport. strengthening that relationship. And decisions can be made based on that better, deeper understanding.

Kevin Metzger: 5:30

So when you talk about active listening or emotional listening, a lot of times when they teach the class on active listening, it's repeat back the last thing somebody said. I think that's important to some degree of making sure that you've heard it right. But would you classify it that way? just repeating back the last thing somebody said isn't necessarily active listening. In my opinion.

Kevin McCahill: 5:52

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's very fair. And that's very foundational idea. And you're right. That's the first thing anyone would say about it. I think we go a little bit further beyond that. So it's listening to understand. Is active listening. So if you think about it this way, if you're on a call with a customer and you're in the renewal cycle and you're trying to get that renewal and they're talking about how this product is broken and the frustration they had. If we're listening to them be frustrated, all we're thinking is, what am I going to say next to get them back on track to sign the renewal? Okay. Well, a customer is going to recognize that, that this has just now become a sales call. So that's where this idea of well repeat back, but it's a little bit further beyond that. It's, you know, another technique you could use is naming emotions. you sound frustrated by what you're saying. This sounds like an annoyance to you. you sound like you're really enjoying this part of the product. what you're trying to do is actually sort of match the level is what you're trying to find where they are and be at that same place. so I understand that this part of our tool isn't working for you. Do I have that? Right. So just so you realize that last their five minutes speech, they just gave you that you actually heard some of that. But then it's also trying to understand where they are to where we can meet them. So that now, okay, we found a common ground. We get each other. We're here now as a team in that relationship report side. And how are we going to move forward from this? So that's sort of a way to take that. I heard you and expand beyond it.

Roman Trebon: 7:20

so Kevin, I think we could all say, this is really important, right? emotional intelligence, active listening, connecting with your clients, managing your emotions, right? Is super important in how you, in how you Speak to clients. I'm curious, I'm sure some of our listeners would say, if I go to my boss and say, I'm going to train my team on EQ, it's going to be a tough sell, right? It's a tough sell, right? it's one of those things we know it's important. Yet, you make it push back within an organization. So how do you make the case for EQ within an organization? How do you start measuring, how would you measure it? how do you get this into an organization? How do you start doing it with your team?

Kevin McCahill: 7:54

Yeah, great questions. this is, you know, things that I work with customers on companies on and exactly that. So first of all, it's being self aware, which I think we recognize that many of us think we're self aware, but then in actual practicality, very few of us recognize it. But there's a level of being self aware, which ties to controlling our emotions, which prevents regret. if we don't understand our own emotions, then in a business sense, we may say, or do something that is going to harm ourselves professionally, but from a business standpoint, it's going to harm the business. So there is a place for it. And often it's tied into coaching and training. And I think so many businesses recognize that continuous training and coaching of teams, but also people, leaders and senior leaders. Is really valuable. There's a lot of skills to continue to be learned to then build a stronger team. And that adds to company retention and things like that. So generally, I focus on that area of really two parts. One that sort of self awareness of your team. How are they understanding customers? and with that point how do you measure it? How are you ensuring that this is actually working to your question? Well, you often see that in terms of retention. And things like NPS scores, for instance. I can think of examples that I've worked on where companies, their post sale process was lacking, They may be just as very top end customer had a dedicated person to them. We recognize the very top line does mass majority of your revenue. But then there was this bottom, maybe 70 percent of the customer base that was sort of. On their own to just use the chat bot and talk and try to get their question resolved that way. Well, so they were seeing that there was a lack of, of renewals and they were dealing with nutrition issue. So what do you do? you expand that a little bit. Training the team, the wider team about how to talk to these smaller customers, how to better engage with them. they found NPS scores rose and the renewals cycle improved as well, just being aware of, the customers, the needs they might have and how to communicate that across. once you start to see that revenue increase or that retention, keeping those customers, the churn reduce, that's a very easy sell for the C suite. recognize that the sort of training, the sort of emotional side of it is really valuable when your team knows how to talk to customers across value points.

Kevin Metzger: 10:17

do you have any examples of specific, like. Okay, we had a team we were in the this was what our retention numbers. This is what our MPS was. And, you know, by going through training, we saw these kinds of improvements over time I'm assuming you've been through this with several teams. So maybe there's some actual results that you can talk to.

Kevin McCahill: 10:43

I can give you one example I worked with specifically about how we had all these customers that we considered uncared for, and the NPS score was very low. the response we were getting from customers was very low. So we enacted a sort of an adjustment to that, where we use some in app messaging to customers, education to customers, did more segmenting with their needs, so better understanding at what stage of the process they're in. Maybe they just recently onboarded, right? so what are their needs there? It's closer to the renewal time. What are their needs there? And then do more outreach to them. a lot of this relates to customer journey mapping. where are they in the process? What emotions might they be feeling? And then how can we match those emotions? So if you think about a journey map, if they just bought the product, they just onboard, there might be a level of anxiety, anxiousness there, right? I just paid for all this. Is this going to work for my team? This is a big investment. how are we going to match that emotion? We know they're feeling it. How can we support that? education being one way to do that, making sure they have all the tools they need, that regular outreach. One thing I like to talk with people about measuring is TTV time to value. that point of value is different for every single customer. There's not a hard number, but when you understand their definition of value to your product, then it's the speed that you can match to it. often that happens quickly. Often within the first two weeks, sometimes even the first day or two, they're going to recognize if this, if this tool adds value to my product or not. So once you know that. In that journey map, then you can match to it and say, Okay, this is a point where they might have a lot of feelings, anxiety or or maybe they're unsure about it. What are we doing? And often that's putting education in front of them is putting us in front of them saying, Hey, how did that go? What can we help you with? in the example I'm referring to we started our NPS score when I worked, started working on that team was in the negatives averaging now about 40. So it was a huge, huge increase. And so much of that is, what I call humanizing the process. There are people on the other side. We still use the technology. We still are data driven, but there are still people that you can connect with and can listen. And then with those active listening skills, like we talked about, customers feel heard, they feel better understood, and that adds to that value that they're finding.

Roman Trebon: 12:56

So Kevin if one of our listeners is managing a team and they want to take this on themselves with their team. what are some of the biggest challenges they may run into and how can they overcome them? I think one, and this is just more of an observation, is They're not trained themselves, right? having these conversations is probably somewhat difficult, but curious from your perspective, how would someone go about this? What can they expect to face and how can they overcome it?

Kevin McCahill: 13:20

Yeah. So, you know, first time is starting as part of training. we all have weekly, either one on ones or team meetings, start incorporating that. there are plenty of good tools online. I would also highlight mastery CX is exactly what we do. And we help your business to do this, creating training materials, coaching. But a lot of that to help start promoting that idea of self awareness. So if we're in a tough conversation and someone says role playing to better understand where we are starting point is sort of our benchmark customers, frustrated, upset. What do you do? Well, I can feel my blood pressure rising. I want to say something. They don't get it. They're not listening. So if that's our typical response, what are some options? How can we work through that to better regulate ourselves and be aware of it? that training is a starting point. For teams to work on or from one on one opportunities creating an environment around that as well. for your team to feel comfortable to say, Hey, I went on this call and really focused on naming the emotions. I focused on being a good listener I focused on being empathetic when they were talking about their financial trouble and why they're having trouble deciding on the renewal this is how it went. So you're sharing back what you learned to your teammates or to others on the team so they can see that others are working on this group mentality. creating an environment where people think about these emotions that we call soft skills and therefore they're often minimized, but recognizing that these skills play a really important part. as a leader, we have to lead by example. So if you're a team leader, taking on coaching yourself is, key, when you're talking with your team members and they're missing deadlines or interacting cross functionally with the marketing team or the product team, and it's not working. That's opportunities to try it too. We often think about this either outward or down. So we're either talking out to a customer or talking down to our team, but we recognize that all this works upward and across too. So. You know, we know from the CS side, we're constantly can be at odds with maybe the product team on, on their roadmap or what function the customers continually tell us they want and how far it is back on the roadmap. Well, that's tension there. That could be an issue. are we being emotionally intelligent? We're talking with the product lead. About what we're hearing from customers. Are we recognizing now when the C suite is speaking or the CEO? If we have that relationship? how are we managing their emotions and the thing? The touch points that are there for them, too. So we start applying this in small ways across teams internally with customers sharing what we're learning Then we start to build that sort of culture, that idea of emotional intelligence everywhere.

Kevin Metzger: 15:52

Roman, as I'm listening to Kevin talk, to me, this is actually a lot about done right. This is what radical candor is about that conversation we had with Julie, right?

Roman Trebon: 16:05

Julie Scott. And Kevin, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but basically, the scale is care a lot. You know, it's like the vertical scale and then X is transparency and the book just basically says, you got to be transparent. You got to give real feedback and you got to care a lot while doing it. What I like about that book is they even say if you don't care a lot, just give the feedback. It's even better than caring and not saying what someone needs to hear. That's the worst place you can be caring and not giving the feedback that team members need, right? sorry, Kev, I cut you off there. No,

Kevin Metzger: 16:41

if you don't care and you give the feedback that maybe that's a lack of EQ, but realistically, though, you, you have to give feedback through a caring methodology. And, and I do think that that it plays into this a lot as we are, you know, Moving forward especially with AI coming into play How do you see emotional intelligence evolving? How do you see it working into the plays with, with ai? You kind of hit on this a little bit. Earlier when you were talking about technology and how you do the additional segmenting and seeing where where the customer flows. But as we move forward, I was going to play more and more into this. And I think 1 of the biggest plays on, the future is the human interaction is going to be important while AI is helping to drive a lot of the day to day work. How do you see it playing in? Where do you see emotional intelligence evolving? from both a person to person and from an AI standpoint, and where does it play in the future of the organization?

Kevin McCahill: 17:48

yeah, absolutely. AI is starting to find its place in customer success. we see a lot of focus on the language model side of it, I think we'll start to see a lot more of, and I've been reading more of as well as the agent side of it, where they essentially become a personal assistant to somebody in the work that they're doing. And that becomes very personalized. So I expect that in terms of, we'll start to see a real personalization Of how this AI tools are used to the specific needs of a customer, which is good, I feel we still need that human aspect behind it. So we understand the customer and what their need might be training, using models, using data to provide them ideas to be very data driven and specific can be really valuable. But still the human aspect of it can be really helpful. I'll give you an example of this. I worked with a large well known company, and They've been around well over a hundred years they leaned very much on it. That was always the messaging that they shared with their customers. This is our history, right? And so you want to be a part of it. what they found was they weren't connecting with younger potential buyers because They didn't connect with your long term history. Where do I fit into it? part of that was using AI modeling to say, what story could we tell that put you inside our larger story? they added this as part of, change management for how the material was shared pitched and discussed with potential clients and current clients. using this to personalize how this person and their, you know, set of scenarios would fit into the larger model of this history of this business. And they found a lot of connection with them. So there's an instance. they saw these younger clients, potential clients, the renewals and the upsells, et cetera. All that shows that when we personalize and somebody feels understood, recognized we're matching the emotion they're feeling it has a positive impact. So I still see the human part of it. the team, the people that I work with, the teams I work with, I encourage use AI, whatever the tool that you prefer, put it in there. If you have an idea, put it in there and say, well, What about this? And then here, make it friendly She gave me three other ideas to match this down the same path, right? See what that does, because it opens up your mindset to things that, maybe you were lacking experience in, and now you can add that in and see what output you get from it.

Roman Trebon: 20:02

I feel that emotional intelligence will be way more valued in the future because of automation and AI, if you have a high EQ moving forward, that's going to transcend. especially because so much will be automated, if you have that human touch, that's going to be a very valuable resource for organizations.

Kevin McCahill: 20:21

if you were to do some research now, you find emotionally intelligent people progress further in their career, their income is higher and they're more likely to be promoted. so much of that is about reading the room and under recognizing the needs of the C suite, recognizing how to play better cross functionally. And everyone else recognizes that too, and they find success. You and I know how it is to talk to a chat bot. When you're trying to get something accomplished, you're like, I know I'm talking to a robot. Now, naturally the, the agent model, we'll see improvements. We're already seeing that, of course, but there is a difference. There is a difference. And so agreed that will absolutely be part of this as we grow. But from a customer facing CS or self awareness side of it, being mindful of how we're molding the two or meshing these two together to find that place and that sweet spot that customers get what they need, that we're giving data driven insights. But also have that person to connect with who understands them and we can discuss things on that emotional level is going to be really impactful.

Kevin Metzger: 21:23

so on AI being able to interact more emotionally. Actually was giving a presentation to se senior group of seniors yesterday. I did it with the act, with the advanced voice mode. I had the advanced voice mode partner with me in the discussion. the intelligence and emotional variations were really pretty good. We had practiced the speech. I was able to talk to it and say. Hey, do you remember that we were going to do? We've been practicing the speech together. I'm so excited about it. some of the questions that came from the group were interesting because they're like, will I know if I'm talking to an AI or a human? That's a good question. One of the things I think we'll have to start doing is you should be able to ask, and it should be legally required that the AI identify itself as an AI. One of the things that I think will start happening is people won't mind having conversations with the AI so much, but they're going to want a human involved, rather than it being a conversation with just an AI, I think we're going to want to Have a human and an AI on at the same time so that the conversation can be a three way conversation to help facilitate the best answers to the humans as we go forward. And this is just stuff I've been thinking about as we move forward, because the AI is going to get better at answering questions, but you're still going to want feedback from somebody who's sitting here thinking. Like you think as a, as a human. So I think those are some things I'm starting to think about and see as, as we evolve over the next year, five years, those are the things we're going to have to start contemplating and how we, how we address related to AI, but really the emotional feeling and emotional intelligence related to interacting with. Companies and with people. You want people involved.

Kevin McCahill: 23:26

Yeah. I would agree with that. there's a commercial on it now. It's meant to be a friend in your pocket. You're supposed to chat with them all the time and they're available. so that side is absolutely coming. And we'll just continue to see improvements in preparation for today. we had a couple of key points to talk about. I put it through an AI tool and said, take this information and tweak it in about 30 seconds I could have given a TED talk on the topic just by what it spewed out. That said, I needed to edit it. I need to go through and say, how do I want to order it? what are the key points I want to put in here. So there, there's that part of it that we need to focus in. And the other part is data security too, that, that every company needs to focus on at what point do we want. An AI tool to say, you now have access to this, you know, whatever, yes, I'll set up this API integration for you and no other human being around is aware that it happened there. There's a level of that discussion, and that's very company specific about how we want to do it. But yeah, completely agree. This is not something that we wanted to downplay. I think there's a huge value in it, and we want to find how our places alongside of it.

Roman Trebon: 24:29

Kevin, as you said that you had the AI in your pocket, remind me of that movie with Joaquin Phoenix. Have you seen her? He's like a big date. I can say I box anyway. I don't know why that remote that popped out, but all right. I think, I think we're, I think we're ready for the hard hitting questions. Mr. Musker, what do you think?

Kevin Metzger: 24:44

let's move into the rapid fire.

Roman Trebon: 24:46

Let's move into the rapid fire section. Guest Kevin, you ready for this? You buckled up ready to go? I'm ready. All right. All right, let's start here. you live up in the Philly area. Kevin and I take a road trip up to Philly. What do we need to see? Where do we need to eat?

Kevin McCahill: 25:02

Oh boy. Well you know, the Rocky statue is a very popular one. Boathouse row. I think those are some of the key areas to check out. In terms of what to eat, I know you're all thinking cheesesteak which is, which is, We are thinking, I was leaning cheesesteak. But you can also get some, fantastic Vietnamese and Thai food here as well, if you're into that style as well. But I would say, you know, Pat's and Gino's the famous places. John's roast beef, I think is probably the quintessential. So I would have to take you to South Philly for a good time.

Roman Trebon: 25:33

Okay, dude, that's real quick. you a Pat or Gino's guy? That's a real hot, heated debate, right? Pat or Gino's? You gotta,

Kevin McCahill: 25:41

I think I'm a pat guy. It's been a number of years, but it's really good, like after a Phillies game to go down there and hang out with everybody. Nice. Nice. Now you,

Roman Trebon: 25:50

GTO's listeners, make sure you reach out to Kevin McCahill. Say that not, lemme know. Tell what I wrong.

Kevin McCahill: 25:55

Tell me what I missed

Kevin Metzger: 25:57

what do you like to do in your spare time?

Kevin McCahill: 26:00

Well, I have two young kids eight and six. I don't know how those middle ages, I don't know how little anybody thinks that age is anymore. They grew up so fast, Definitely spending a lot of time with them. And my wife, we like to travel as well. We were up in New York city last weekend. Kids love the natural history museum. So we got to check that out, which is really fun. try to get them outside as much as possible and enjoy the seasons.

Roman Trebon: 26:21

So we got Thanksgiving is this week. You got a favorite Thanksgiving side, Kevin.

Kevin McCahill: 26:28

in terms of a Turkey dinner, mashed potatoes and gravy will always be my go to for sure.

Roman Trebon: 26:33

No

Kevin McCahill: 26:34

as long as there's football on, I'm here for the football.

Kevin Metzger: 26:38

are you much of a cook or not?

Kevin McCahill: 26:41

Oh, yeah, I am. I like to quite a bit. We're actually doing this weekend more of a chili. We're having some friends over and a chili cookoff sort of stew. Nice thing changing up a little bit this year, but that'll be really good. Nice. Yeah,

Kevin Metzger: 26:53

I'm a fan of chili. I make a mean chili.

Kevin McCahill: 26:56

Oh, nice.

Roman Trebon: 26:57

Oh, we got a chili off. Let's talk about the spice. Kevin versus Kevin Chili off. That's what we need here. so Kevin, where can our listeners find more about you Mastery cx? Where, where can they check you out?

Kevin McCahill: 27:08

Mastery CX. com. On my emails, Kevin at mastery CX. com. please come check us out. we're happy to share coaching, training, journey mapping, help companies post sale build really strong systems and programs in place. That's what we do. And we'd love to help you as well.

Roman Trebon: 27:24

well, Kevin, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. have a great Thanksgiving as well. audience, I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Kevin on emotional intelligence and how you can incorporate it into your customer success teams. If you found this episode helpful, don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a rating. Share it with your network. You can reach out and connect with Kevin and myself on LinkedIn. Kevin McCahill's on LinkedIn as well. So check him out on LinkedIn, but you can find me at Roman Trebon. You can find Kevin at Kevin Metzger. We have our customer success playbook podcast page on LinkedIn. check that out. You'll see some clips of shows, upcoming guests, et cetera. we'd love hearing which topics and guests you'd like for us to have on the show. Our audience have an amazing Thanksgiving. Enjoy this episode. Thanks for listening. And as always, keep on playing.